What's Next in Search? From SEO to AR, AI & TikTok | Gerry White
Welcome to a brand-new episode of The Search Session! I’m Gianluca Fiorelli and this time, I had the real pleasure of chatting with someone many of you already know and respect in the SEO world - Gerry White.
Gerry’s been around the SEO block in every possible way: agency, in-house, and now running his own consultancy. He’s not only packed with knowledge, but he’s also genuinely curious, creative, and fun to talk to.
In this episode, we dive into the fast-changing world of search—AI, AR, TikTok as a discovery engine, and much more. It’s a wide-ranging conversation, from practical insights to big-picture thinking, and I’m sure you’ll walk away with something to chew on (and maybe even a cortado in hand 😄).
Tune in, and don’t forget to subscribe if you haven’t already!
Video Chapters
Pros and Cons of In-House SEO vs. Independent Consulting: Insights from Gerry White
How is Gerry White Coping With the Rapid and Radical SEO Changes of the Past 3 Years
Gerry’s Predictions for the Future of Search – Especially Visual Search
AR/VR as Emerging Platforms for Digital Experiences and Their Hardware Challenges
3D Cinematic Experiences: How Influencers and Brands Can Create Immersive Content
How SEOs Can Adapt to Modern Multi-Touchpoint Search Journeys
The Measurement Dilemma: Why SEOs Must Learn to Say 'We Don't Know'
Transcript
Gianluca Fiorelli: Hi, and welcome to The Search Session! Today, we’ve got a fantastic guest joining us—someone who’s really well-known, especially within the international SEO community. He’s not only incredibly knowledgeable, but also a genuinely great guy—friendly, approachable, and full of insights about SEO.
We’re talking with Gerry White.
Meet Our Guest: Gerry White
Gianluca Fiorelli: Hello, Gerry! How are you doing?
Gerry White: Hey! Yeah, I’m good. England’s hot today, so I’m happy.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Oh, it’s sunny over there?
Gerry White: Very! That’s why I’m wearing a t-shirt instead of the shirt I was planning to wear.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Ah, okay, great. So, for those who might not know you yet, let’s have a quick introduction. Right now, Gerry works as a consultant through his own company, Dergal LTD. But before that, he’s worked in a variety of roles—he’s been in-house, worked at agencies, and held positions across different types of companies. So he’s really experienced the full range of what a career in SEO can look like.
Pros and Cons of In-House SEO vs. Independent Consulting: Insights from Gerry White
Gianluca Fiorelli: Just to start with a bit of a curiosity: if you had to choose, where have you felt most comfortable? As a consultant? Working in-house? Or at an agency? Or maybe you liked all three? What would you say were the positives of each position?
Gerry White: I mean, there are definitely a couple of career highlights where I really felt like, “This is what I’m meant to do.”
One of those moments was when I landed at Just Eat. I remember thinking, “This is so cool.” Suddenly, I was working at a company where I could say, “Hey, can we try this?”—and there was a team ready to respond.
Sometimes they'd say no, or that it wasn’t possible, or that it’d have to wait six months. But a lot of the time, if I could put together a solid business case and sort out the details, I could actually make it happen.
I’ve been really lucky. Just Eat was great, and I also worked for a Norwegian supermarket for about 18 months—that was another amazing experience. I was part of a growth team there that just wanted to do—to improve everything.
So yeah, I've been really lucky with those two particular roles.
But I’d say I probably learned everything on the agency side. That’s where I studied and built my foundation. Working in an agency means you get to work on all kinds of websites from different industries, and you’re surrounded by other passionate SEOs and digital marketers.
I started out at an agency called Razorfish, and I learned so much there—not just about SEO tactics, but also the commercial side of things: how to present, how to scale, how to communicate with clients. I was working on everything from charities to banks to massive clients. And I was pretty young at the time—at least mentally!
Gianluca Fiorelli: And now, like me, you're working as a consultant. I believe consultancy is a natural evolution for someone with years of experience—especially if you're not aiming to become the director of a large agency or the head of growth at a big company.
For the younger generation, starting out in an agency—regardless of its size—can be invaluable, particularly if it's staffed with knowledgeable people.
As we say in Italy, it's like doing one or two years in the army: it builds your muscles and provides the foundational experience needed to grow.
Eventually, this can lead to creating your own consultancy or moving in-house.
That's the kind of path I would recommend—even though I didn't follow it myself. But times were different when we started, for agencies.
Gerry White: Yeah.
How is Gerry White Coping With the Rapid and Radical SEO Changes of the Past 3 Years
Gianluca Fiorelli: So, let’s dive into the topic of search.
One of the recurring themes in The Search Session is discussing the changes we’re all experiencing—and they’ve been coming fast.
Are you feeling this shift yourself?
It might feel like it’s been many years, but really, it’s just the past two or three years that have brought such rapid transformation.
Google has been rolling out so many new features. For example, Google Merchant is now taking over much of the transactional side of search.
And of course, we’re talking a lot about AI Overviews. Last year, it was more of an experiment—but suddenly, it’s here.
Then there’s OpenAI and ChatGPT—it’s only been around two years, but it feels like it’s become part of everything.
So how are you experiencing all these big changes happening in such a short amount of time?
Gerry White: Yeah, the biggest challenge right now is just keeping up—staying on top of everything and experimenting in ways that are actually useful and client-friendly.
And honestly, there's nothing wrong with being a little behind the curve—as long as you're not so far behind that you're completely out of touch.
I’ve always been the type to experiment. I’m the guy who says, “Hey, we can hack this with Google Tag Manager,” or “Let’s use the cloud to inject something here.” I love finding creative workarounds.
But this whole AI wave? It’s incredible.
I’m subscribed to Aleyda's newsletter, and I follow everyone I know who really understands this space—on what used to be called Twitter, and elsewhere—just to keep up.
Still, every time I blink, someone’s already doing something more advanced, more amazing. I’ve seen so many presentations where I’m just like, “Wow, that is seriously cool.”
Personally, I’m using AI a lot—especially to write bits of code. I know people call it “vibe coding,” which I hate as a phrase—but the idea is, say I want to do something in Google Tag Manager, like inject a fix for a Merchant Center issue. I can just prompt the AI, and within seconds, I’ve got really solid JavaScript. I’ll tweak it myself, of course, to make sure it does exactly what I need. But it saves so much time.
And it's not just code—I’m using AI in all sorts of ways, including content. One thing I love is turning articles I need to read into podcasts. While I’m driving, Google Studio will create a podcast version, so I can just listen as I go. That’s been a game-changer for me.
There’s so much happening with AI right now. My laptop seems to be alive and running constantly—hopefully you’re still hearing me!
But yes, I think the future is incredible. Like you said, it’s only been 18 to 24 months. I remember doing a podcast with Yoast and Jono where we were saying, “This is going to be exciting someday.”
And just a few months later, it hit way harder and way faster than either of us expected. What we thought would take years arrived almost overnight.
Gerry’s Predictions for the Future of Search – Especially Visual Search
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah—I totally agree with you. It’s like you have this gut feeling that the future’s going to be exciting… and that maybe it’s going to arrive even faster than we expect.
Gerry White: Yeah, I’m one of those perpetually optimistic people. I always think, “This new tech is going to land and be amazing.” And then I’m often surprised by how clunky some of it still is.
Take Google Voice, for example—I'll ask it to do something simple, like turn on a light, and instead it tries to play a song on Spotify. Or it says, “Sorry, I don’t understand,” even though I’ve asked in plain English.
So I guess I tend to expect AI to be better than it actually is—and to improve faster than it does.
That said, I’m really looking forward to things like Meta AI and some of the newer integrations, especially those involving vision.
There’s so much exciting stuff happening outside of search, too.
Already, I use things like Google Lens all the time. I’ll snap a photo and say, “What is this?” or “What kind of plant is this?”—and it gives me a pretty accurate answer, instantly.
That kind of real-world application is really impressive.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, totally—I’ve been a big fan of Google Lens for years. We were talking about it a while back, and I’ve been trying to shine a light on visual search for some time because, honestly, it’s often been neglected by SEOs—by our profession in general.
But now, search itself is reminding us just how important the visual element really is.
And these days, I think there are some very interesting experiments happening with AI. For example, I don’t know if you’ve tested it yet, but now in the Gemini app, you can basically use Lens in a multimodal way. So you can engage in a conversation that combines a visual input with voice and text.
It’s fascinating—and I think that’s going to be the kind of search experience we’ll all be using soon. Not just in beta.
In a way, I feel like Google has been trying to get here for a while. They made an early attempt with Google Assistant, but back then the technology just wasn’t ready.
I remember—and it’s still the case, actually—using the Google Assistant device with a screen... I can’t recall the product name now, but it’s the one you can speak to, and it’s basically running Google Assistant. Anyway, the experience is still pretty awful.
Now, once they fully integrate Gemini—especially with software that can handle all the inputs—it’ll finally make sense. Hopefully it’ll even start recognizing my voice properly! Because I have a pretty unusual accent.
When I speak Italian, Google Assistant hears a Spanish accent—after 20 years in Spain, fair enough! But when I speak Spanish, it picks up my Italian.
And I won’t even tell you what happens when I try English... it's a mess.
But yes, I think Google has been exploring this kind of conversational search for a long time—and now, finally, they have the technology to do it right.
What do you think?
Gerry White: Yeah, I think so. My experience with Google—and I’ve had some odd, close-up ones—is that there are about 20 different teams that don’t always talk to each other.
So for example, when Gemini first came out, they announced, “We’ve replaced Google Assistant with Gemini!” And I thought, Fantastic!
Then I get in the car, ask it to play something on Spotify, and it says, “Oh, I can’t do that yet. I’m just an AI assistant.”
And I’m like… but you could do that six months ago!
It’s the same with switching my lights on and off. It used to do it—kind of clumsily—but at least it worked.
So I feel like there’s a lack of continuity at Google. They don’t always seem to ask themselves, “What are people actually using this for today?” or “What do users expect it to still do?”
Most people, I believe, use Google Assistant and similar voice tools for really basic things:
Playing Spotify in the car.
Getting navigation.
Turning on smart home devices.
These are core use cases—and Google really needs to make sure those basics carry through whenever they update or rebrand anything.
Now, I’m also looking at products like Meta’s new smart glasses—you know, the ones with the camera that can take photos and do all sorts of things. It’s cool technology. But then I ask myself, What would I actually use this for on a day-to-day basis?
I talk to people who love them, who say they're brilliant, and I just think, None of that fits how I would use it.
What I would love is being able to look at something and say, “I want to buy this. Where can I find it?”—and then it tracks it down for me.
Actually, Google Lens is already doing that really well now. And of course, true to form, as soon as you snap a photo to search for something… Google figures out how to monetize it and shows you an ad for it.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Well, Lens could definitely be monetized through something like showrooming.
You know—that moment when you walk into a physical shop and start taking photos of products to search for them online and compare prices.
In fact, I don’t know if it’s happened in the UK, but I remember that a few stores here in Europe—in Spain, for example—started asking customers not to take photos of the products on the shelves.
Because they knew exactly what people were doing: snapping pictures and then using Google to find out where they could buy the item for less.
Gerry White: Yep.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Exactly—it’s pretty straightforward to monetize.
When you use Lens, you get image search results with actual products. And that’s practically the blueprint of Google Merchant: you click and go straight to the product page on a website. You don’t even have to go through a category page.
And we know Google has been pushing shopping through Google Image Search as well. So from that angle, it’s already monetized.
AR/VR as Emerging Platforms for Digital Experiences and Their Hardware Challenges
Gianluca Fiorelli: But I think the real challenge—especially since I know you’re a big fan of all things AR and VR—is about the device itself.
What’s the right device? What’s the most comfortable form factor for a person to actually use—particularly for augmented reality?
Because when it comes to AR, the big leap is getting people to move beyond just gaming and actually start using it in everyday life.
Gerry White: I mean, the Meta Quest right now is incredibly powerful—and it only costs around £300, so about €400. For a top-end device that supports mixed reality, that’s pretty impressive.
Sure, it’s great for gaming. But one of the things I was discussing with a friend recently is how it can go well beyond that. For example, I could use it to have immersive experiences where I’m chatting with someone while learning a new language—Italian, French, Spanish—almost like being in a virtual classroom or studio.
It’s great for studying, for exploring. I can virtually visit Prague, Germany—anywhere really. Interactive meetings could be brilliant with it too.
That said, I still feel like we’re not quite there yet.
Even though lots of people have these devices at home, the mainstream use case beyond gaming still hasn’t fully clicked.
Some people I talk to are really pushing the limits. They’re using the headset as a multi-screen setup—big virtual monitors for video editing or productivity work. But personally, I’ve tried that and didn’t enjoy it. It felt too heavy, too clunky—it’s just not quite there for me yet.
But looking ahead, I do believe the future is going to be something more refined. I already have a pair of sunglasses I can plug into my laptop that act like a virtual screen. That’s great when I’m traveling—say I need to work on a spreadsheet but don’t want others seeing what I’m doing. It acts like a built-in privacy screen.
There’s a lot of cool tech in this space. I mainly use those glasses when I fly—they give me the feeling of sitting in a massive cinema rather than being crammed into an EasyJet seat. But like we said earlier with AI, we’re still in that first generation.
Things are evolving so quickly.
Just look at LlamaCon—strange name, I know—but Meta is using it to announce all kinds of new tech: AI integrations, partnerships with Microsoft, Xbox, and more.
The more people bring these devices into their homes for play, the more they’ll start to explore, “What else can I do with this?”
I just hope people find real, lasting uses for them.
As for Apple’s device… personally, I’m not a big fan. The price point is just too high. And if people buy it, use it for ten minutes, and then think, “Okay… now what?”—that’s the risk.
That said, I do think there’ll be a lot of practical use cases in the future. Like virtual house tours—that’s already becoming common. Or learning new skills in a more interactive way.
But to be honest? Right now, I mostly just use mine for gaming.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, if we want to be honest, all the biggest technological advancements—if we think about the internet itself—were basically driven by two things.
Gerry White: Yep.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Gaming and porn.
Gerry White: I was gonna say that there’s three things—yeah, the military definitely drove a lot of it.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I was thinking more in terms of, let’s say, the industry and public side of things. Those were the main drivers, you know? It’s similar with AI—it’s kind of where everything started.
Gerry White: Yeah, you’re right.
Gianluca Fiorelli: The same thing applies to the internet—and really, to most major technological advancements. Take AI image generation, for example. Platforms like MidJourney had to implement really strong moderation early on, because the first thing people started doing was generating explicit content. It’s the same story with deepfakes.
Gerry White: Yeah.
Gianluca Fiorelli: AI-generated video has followed a similar path. We know how it usually starts...
Gerry White: I mean, we’re not gonna get into politics, but how often have you watched a video of Trump saying something and thought, “Is this fake or is it real?” It’s wild. I mean, Trump says the most outrageous things—and then you find out that almost none of it is fake. It’s all real.
Exploring the Real Opportunities and Risks of AR/VR
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, I know. But let’s try to imagine a future where the problems of VR—virtual reality—have been solved. What kind of future could that be?
What comes to mind for me is Ready Player One, both the movie and the book. What kind of world could we end up in if a mega-corporation controlled VR? Imagine your entire virtual environment filled with banners—basically a 3D version of Google Ads today.
Or maybe something even more dystopian, like in the novel. I know it’s fiction, but still—what kind of opportunities or risks could businesses face in that kind of VR-driven future?
Gerry White: Oh yeah, I mean, we’re a hundred percent going to be using head-up display glasses. Google has just released—or is in the process of releasing—something like an Android for glasses. So basically, I’ll be walking down the street with my glasses on, and I’ll be able to say, “Hey, find me a pub,” or “I want to get a coffee,” or “Where’s the nearest garage?”
Anything you’re looking for in the real world, it’ll just go, “Oh, it’s down here on the left.” And Google will be able to sell that info in advance. So at dinnertime, you’re walking along and suddenly you get a little pop-up saying, “Fancy a pizza? It’s just down here on the left.”
It’s kind of terrifying how subtly Google could monetize all of it. I’m really hoping they do it subtly, and not as aggressively as they’re currently handling Google Ads on the SERPs. Like, if I search for something, I don’t want 20 ads—I want one or two, and the rest to be organic.
So I’m hoping that when Google launches an AR version of Google Maps, I won’t be driving and constantly bombarded with pop-ups every few seconds as I pass a KFC or something. I don’t mind some marketing, I don’t mind a bit of advertising—but I’m terrified that if I wear Google Glasses, that’s all it’ll be.
That said, we’re so used to the mobile phone form factor—six inches or whatever it is—and it’s become our default. But if we get to the point where someone sends us a TikTok or a YouTube video, and we can watch it in a near-cinema experience using glasses we carry in our pockets, then yeah, I think we’ll definitely be using glasses, voice commands, and maybe something like a smartwatch way more than we are now.
I even had a bet with a guy named Nick that e-commerce would be taken over by VR soon. Like, if I want to buy a suit, or some amazing clothes, or just shop online—there should be a fully immersive VR e-commerce experience. But that still hasn’t happened. I haven’t seen a great VR shopping experience yet.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Surely this is something that should be studied and experimented with by the big companies. I mean, just think about it—something like this could actually be cheaper in the long run than some of the other types of experiments we’ve seen, like intelligent mirrors. You know, those systems where you see yourself virtually trying on clothes in a store? They’re interesting, but complex and expensive.
But I really think companies should focus on building integrations. And maybe AI is going to make all of this easier than it was even just a couple of years ago. I still feel like we’re in a kind of second beta phase of what AI can do—it's not yet super advanced.
There’s a lot of buzz now around agentic AI—creating agents that can act autonomously. Once this generation of AI, which is really only six months old, starts to mature a bit more, we might see real synergy between AR, traditional search, in-store experiences, and more.
I’m thinking of combining these technologies—like those beacons you place in a store that send signals to your phone—as part of a broader, smarter experience powered by AI agents. That kind of integration could open up really interesting possibilities.
Gerry White: Yep.
3D Cinematic Experiences: How Influencers and Brands Can Create Immersive Content
Gianluca Fiorelli: Speaking of AR, do you think it’s going to be especially interesting for marketers and search—not just for e-commerce and in-store experiences, but also for local searches?
Gerry White: Yeah, I mean, one of the things I talked about at a conference recently was the fact that Apple phones can now capture augmented reality-style video—basically 3D video. So instead of just taking a normal photo or video, you’re creating something with depth, something immersive.
Right now, it’s designed to be viewed interactively with the Apple Vision headset, but it’s also available on the Meta Quest. So already, we can create cinematic 3D experiences—with real depth and feeling.
If I had an iPhone, I’d be taking more and more of those, and I think marketers should be doing the same. Think about TikTok influencers—they should be experimenting with 3D videos now. Because at some point, there will be a “TikTok of augmented reality.” I don’t know what it’ll be called—maybe I should invent it, patent it, trademark it—but it’s coming.
The tech will be here in the next 18 to 24 months. Samsung is working with Google, Microsoft is working with Meta... it’s all in motion.
So the short version is: if I can create a series of interactive videos and be first to the field—and if those videos also market my business—I’d absolutely be doing it. Especially if I have a visually rich product or experience. Luxury brands, travel, design—anything where you can say, “Experience this properly. See it for yourself.” That’s where this kind of immersive content could really work.
Gianluca Fiorelli: You’ve already mentioned TikTok twice in our conversation, and of course, I can't help but think about how the search journey has evolved so rapidly in recent years.
There was a time when the search journey was almost entirely within Google Search. You’d enter a query, get results, and immediately see which pages were ranking. For many, it became a predictable cycle—search, click, search, click. And if you ranked well for a keyword, you could get a lot of organic traffic.
But then Google started to expand the journey across its entire ecosystem. It wasn’t just about going from one SERP to another anymore. Suddenly, you’d start on Search, then go to YouTube, then maybe to Google News, back to Search again, or even over to Google Maps. This is also when we started to notice the rise of the “zero-click” phenomenon.
People began to realize that search doesn’t just happen on Google. There are many surfaces where people now search for information. Take the Reddit example, for instance. When people began appending “Reddit” to their queries, it wasn’t just because they were fed up with Google giving poor results—they were actively seeking out more trustworthy or real-user insights.
And now we see platforms like TikTok—especially among younger generations—being used as a kind of search engine, too. People search for product reviews, tips, tutorials, even travel ideas directly on TikTok.
How SEOs Can Adapt to Modern Multi-Touchpoint Search Journeys
Gianluca Fiorelli: So the question is: how should SEOs, especially those who haven’t yet adapted, be thinking about this expanded, fragmented search landscape? Because we now also have to factor in ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude, and all the LLM-powered systems that are reshaping how people discover and consume information.
I imagine your clients—as a consultant—are starting to ask you about this more and more. How are you approaching it?
Gerry White: I wish they were.
I mean, I’m actually heading to Poland in a week for the EU Search Awards, and I was chatting with people about what we’re going to do there—where to go, what to see. And without even thinking about it, I typed “Krakow” into TikTok and started scrolling. Suddenly I was like, “Oh, that looks interesting... wow, that’s amazing.” It just became this really intuitive discovery process.
TikTok has picked up on this behavior—how people are interacting with content tied to physical locations and products. Now, every location is tagged, and you can click into it to get more information. What’s really fascinating is that a lot of this info is actually pulled from Google—reviews, details, all that—so there’s already this back-and-forth between platforms happening.
Honestly, I’d argue that TikTok has become a discovery engine. When I’m looking for restaurants, this is where I catch myself all the time: I’ll be doom-scrolling at night, see a video of a great restaurant—something that looks perfect for my kids or my partner—and I’ll think, I need to bookmark that. Then I go over to Google and save it there so I’ll remember it later.
So the discovery phase is happening on TikTok, and then I’ll often shift to Google when it’s time to plan or act. It’s the same with products, games, VR stuff—you name it. I even pick up digital marketing tips on TikTok. There are great little snippets people are sharing. Chris Green is someone I follow, and we both follow this coffee connoisseur who gives amazing tips. Next thing I know, I’m considering dropping £450 on high-end coffee gear—though, let’s be honest, I’ll probably try to find it cheaper on AliExpress!
What I’m getting at is: the way I discover products, services, and even information is now often through platforms like TikTok, not necessarily Google Search. It’s more about following my interests and being marketed to in ways that feel natural.
As you said, that messy journey? It really does work. I bounce between platforms—TikTok, Google, maybe Reddit—and each one plays a different role. So now I wrestle with this question: is TikTok just social media, or is it really a discovery engine?
I don’t post much on TikTok—just a few funny videos—but I know I need to learn more. Because my clients need to be there. Getting over that initial hesitation of, “I don’t want to do TikTok,” to realizing, “Actually, this is a really effective marketing platform”—that’s quite a challenge.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, indeed it is. And I think at this point, TikTok no longer carries that old stigma of being “just an app for kids.” It’s used by almost everyone now.
What’s really interesting to me is this growing fluidity—the liquidity—of the search journey. And one of the most positive effects of that is how it’s pushing SEOs, who have traditionally worked within their own bubble, to open up and collaborate more with other types of marketers.
Because if we want to truly follow the search behavior happening on platforms that aren’t formally search engines, we need to understand those ecosystems. And that means building common ground with others—social media marketers, email marketers, and so on—to ensure we’re creating a consistent strategy across all these different channels.
SEOs as Technical Marketers
Gerry White: One of my strong views is that I’m not just an SEO. I mean, okay—SEO is a large part of my job title, and in many ways, it is my job. But one of the things I’ve been saying for the past 10 years is that a lot of what we do is actually more like technical marketing.
We’re the people who look at things from a user experience point of view. We think about discovery. We do things that improve how content is shared.
There’s this thing on websites called Open Graph. If you share a website link to Slack—or anywhere else—it pulls through an image and a title from the webpage. That’s all influenced by Open Graph tags. It’s a bit like a meta description or a title tag, but specifically for social sharing.
Now, you’d think that would be something handled by the social media team. But a lot of the time, it’s not even something they consider part of their role—or they don’t fully understand how it works. So it ends up being done by SEOs.
And the thing is, it’s not something that directly affects organic search rankings. It’s not really “SEO” in the traditional sense. But it is important—because we know shareability increases traffic. If a link is shared with a big, attractive image, it’s more likely to get clicks.
So we, as SEOs, are often doing things that sit outside the classic definition of SEO—but we do them because they contribute to the bigger picture of visibility and traffic.
So I think it’s really, really important that we start to see ourselves as more than just “the SEO guy in the corner” focused solely on rankings in Google.
We need to understand that if we’re involved in setting up something like a TikTok account, we’re also the ones who should be saying, “Hang on—before you launch that, let’s make sure everything’s set up properly.” That means all the small but critical technical details are in place.
For example, when linking back to the website, are the links pointing to the right pages? Are they trackable? Are they optimized? We should also be thinking about things like QR codes, or NFCs—basically, all the ways people now access and interact with content.
We’re no longer just about optimizing for 10 blue links on a search results page. We’re technical marketers. And I think recognizing that shift is really, really important.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, I totally agree. And actually, “technical marketing” is a term I use as well—because it really captures that blend between technical knowledge and marketing strategy. It’s about understanding the mechanics behind how things work, but also knowing how to promote what needs to be promoted—whether it’s a website, a product, a client’s business, and so on.
The Measurement Dilemma: Why SEOs Must Learn to Say 'We Don't Know'
Gianluca Fiorelli: The only issue is, the messier the user journey becomes, the harder it is to measure. And that, I think, is one of the biggest challenges we’re facing now—how to truly measure the impact of what we do.
Because as you know, being a consultant too, at the end of the day we have to go to the client and show them—with data—what the value of our work has been.
Gerry White: Yeah, I know—and I’m not going to argue with you. But the really hard part is explaining to a client that... we don’t know.
Take TikTok, for example. If someone clicks through from a TikTok video, they’re often opening the link in an in-app browser, which creates a completely different session from, say, Chrome or Safari. So now, suddenly, you can’t easily link those journeys together.
Let’s say we do a great video on TikTok, and thousands of people click through to check out the product. The issue is, we can’t always tell if those same people came back later—maybe days or weeks later—via a different channel and actually made a purchase. We lose the ability to connect those dots easily.
So when we go to the client, we have to say: “Look, we don’t know for sure.” What we can say is that during the campaign, traffic increased over here, and revenue increased over there. We can use correlation—it’s not the same as causation, of course—but when we see consistent patterns, we can start making educated guesses based on the data we do have.
The short version is: it’s challenging to go to a client and admit we don’t have all the answers. But we can show them what the data suggests. And the more campaigns we run, the more data we collect. Over time, we start to see clearer cause-and-effect patterns. We can say, “When we do this, this tends to happen. So if we do more of it, we expect to see more results.”
But yeah, it’s always a challenge in marketing—especially when it comes to showing what's not working—because sometimes, even that’s hard to pin down with certainty.
Gianluca Fiorelli: True, true. Yes, it's definitely a struggle. But I agree—the idea of using correlation, always with the disclaimer that “correlation is not causation,” can be a good alternative to simply saying, “I don’t know.” We may not have absolute certainty, but we can show that there’s a clear relationship between what we planned in this area and the results that followed.
I mean, it’s easier when it comes to the technical side of things. You make a technical change, and you can usually see whether it works—if it’s going well, going poorly, or just flatlining. SEO testing isn’t anything new anymore, at least not for a knowledgeable SEO. We’ve got tools and methodologies to measure that stuff.
But when we shift to the marketing side of our work, then yeah—this idea of “measured correlation” becomes a really valuable approach.
Quickfire Round: Getting to Know Gerry
Gianluca Fiorelli: So! Let’s move to the final part of our conversation.
I’m going to ask you a few quick questions—you should answer them fast, without thinking too much. They’re simple, nothing complicated, just a way to get to know you better—Gerry White the person, not the one behind the laptop doing SEO.
Let’s begin. Since we’ve been talking about coffee—this is a curious one, especially since I’m Italian: What’s your favorite type of coffee?
Gerry White: Okay, so what I tend to drink—if I have the option—is a cortado. It’s basically like a short latte. I might be wrong there, but to me, a cortado is my favorite. It’s a strong espresso with just a tiny drop of milk.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, yes—it is that! In Spain, we call it a cortado too. In Italian, though, it’s called a caffè macchiato.
Just a little tip—if you ever go to Italy, and you ask for a caffè macchiato, you’ll get an espresso with just a little bit of milk, like your cortado. But if you say latte macchiato, you’re getting a full glass of milk with a shot of coffee—basically the classic “latte” you’d get in most coffee shops.
Gerry White: I’ve actually gotten into arguments with Italians about coffee—just for fun!
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah, same here! But let’s not even get started on the different types of paella here in Valencia. So, next question: What’s the sound you most like to hear?
Gerry White: The sound I most like to hear? Hmm... Well, right now I can actually hear my kids laughing in the other room—and that’s usually a great sound.
I’ve kind of quietly messaged them twice, like, “Shhh, quiet down!” But I have no idea what they’re giggling about, and honestly, it kind of sounds like trouble. Still, I do love that sound.
Gianluca Fiorelli: I love it too. Sometimes it’s too loud—but yeah, I love it.
Alright, next one: What’s something that almost irrationally drives you crazy?
Gerry White: You know what really drives me crazy? How people get off planes. Everyone's in such a rush, and it’s so inefficient.
It’s like—if people just calmly got their things together and exited in order, everything would go smoother. But no, there's this sudden chaos, with everyone scrambling to get off 10 seconds earlier, and it ends up causing tailbacks in the aisle.
It’s just one of those things—this weird lack of efficiency that really gets to me. I’ll be sitting there thinking, “I want to get off too, I want to get to my hotel, relax, maybe grab a cortado or something.” But instead, it becomes this mess of unnecessary rushing.
Yeah, that’s definitely one of my irrational pet peeves. I just don’t get why people feel the need to push off the plane that quickly.
Gianluca Fiorelli: We could say... egoistic irrationality is your trigger!
Alright, shifting gears—do you read a lot?
Gerry White: Yeah, I used to read more than I do now, but I still try. These days I’ve been listening to a lot of audiobooks, to be honest—especially while I’m driving.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Oh, same here! I only recently started doing that, though I still prefer podcasts when I’m on the road.
So let’s talk books for a moment: What kind of books do you enjoy most—or is there a book you find yourself coming back to, maybe re-reading passages from now and then?
Gerry White: Fictional books, mostly. Lately, I’ve been reading a lot of Asimov.
I actually read all of his books when I was a kid, and now I’ve got a stack of them sitting over there, and I find myself going back to them. It’s really great to reread those stories—and it’s surprising how they hit differently as you get older.
If you know anything about Isaac Asimov, you’ll know he predicted a lot of what we’re seeing today with AI. He had this strangely prophetic view of the future—talking about robotics and artificial intelligence long before any of it was real. It’s fascinating.
The film iRobot was actually based on one of his books, and you can really see how forward-thinking his writing was.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Last question!
What’s a place on Earth that you really loved visiting? It doesn’t have to be anything exotic—it could be just around the corner.
Gerry White: I’m really into culture—especially relaxed culture. One of the cities I visited that completely won me over was Bucharest. I actually started planning to host a Take It Offline conference there. Honestly, if it weren’t for the kids, I think I could move there!
It’s a city I could happily live in. Great food, great culture, great wine... What more do you need?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, exactly! Sometimes I think we overcomplicate life. Maybe we’d be a lot happier if we were just a bit less pretentious.
It’s been a real pleasure having this conversation with you—hearing your thoughts on VR, AR, search, TikTok, and everything in between. I’m really glad we explored all these topics together.
And to everyone watching or listening—just one quick ask:
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Thank you!
Podcast Host
Gianluca Fiorelli
With almost 20 years of experience in web marketing, Gianluca Fiorelli is a Strategic and International SEO Consultant who helps businesses improve their visibility and performance on organic search. Gianluca collaborated with clients from various industries and regions, such as Glassdoor, Idealista, Rastreator.com, Outsystems, Chess.com, SIXT Ride, Vegetables by Bayer, Visit California, Gamepix, James Edition and many others.
A very active member of the SEO community, Gianluca daily shares his insights and best practices on SEO, content, Search marketing strategy and the evolution of Search on social media channels such as X, Bluesky and LinkedIn and through the blog on his website: IloveSEO.net.
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