From Fashion to Travel: Lessons in SEO, Brand & Data | Maria White
Welcome back to The Search Session. I’m your host, Gianluca Fiorelli, and today I sit down with Maria White, UK SEO Lead at TUI, for a rich conversation that dives deep into what SEO really looks like in 2025.
Maria explains why visibility doesn’t always translate into impact. She shares how building a custom dashboard helped uncover what was really blocking clicks, and why hyper-personalized search results demand closer collaboration across paid, CRM, and social teams. Diversifying your strategy is no longer optional—it could be the difference between growth and decline.
Together, we unpack image optimization with practical insights from her experience, and then reflect on LLMs. She believes that ChatGPT isn’t replacing Google anytime soon—but it’s already changing how people search, driven by a desire for simplicity and clear answers.
This is the kind of conversation that pushes your thinking forward. Don’t miss it.
Video Chapters
Transcript
Gianluca Fiorelli: Hi, and welcome back to The Search Session! Today, we’re going to talk about travel, fashion, working with influencers, operating omnichannel, and dealing with the different people who make up a company’s marketing team.
Meet Our Guest: Maria White
Gianluca Fiorelli: And to explore all of this, we’re talking to the best — a wonderful guest who’s currently the UK SEO Lead at TUI. Not so many months ago, she was the Global SEO Lead at Kurt Geiger. She’s worked with many other amazing brands, she’s a good friend of mine, and I’m sure you’re going to recognize her.
Hi Maria, how are you doing?
Maria White: Hi, Gianluca! Thank you for having me!
Gianluca Fiorelli: Just a quick opening question I like to ask every guest—how is SEO treating you these weird and strange days?
Maria White: Oh, yeah. What a time to be working in SEO. There’s definitely been a noticeable change—especially being in-house and in retail. I’ve seen a significant shift in how SEO is perceived. What used to be considered just “nice to have”—something I’ve heard from other retailers and in-house friends—is now becoming a real point of concern. There’s a kind of panic about organic traffic and AI overviews. So yes, there’s definitely been a big change in how retailers are viewing SEO right now.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes.
Maria White: It’s the best time—for me, at least. I went from fashion to travel. And honestly, it’s been one of the most transformative years for SEO I’ve ever seen.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, yes. Let’s try to see the bright side. You’re living through an exciting time for SEO—because we really have to rethink how we do our jobs. We need to reconsider how Google Search is evolving, how other search environments are starting to influence behavior, and how people’s search habits are changing as a result.
The Visibility Paradox: Why Rankings Don’t Equal Results
Gianluca Fiorelli: So, let’s talk about travel—which is a sector I’ve also had the pleasure to work in, and I’m actually working in right now.
We’ve seen that AI Overviews—especially based on all the stats, including those from Advanced Web Ranking—can offer visibility, but that visibility doesn’t necessarily translate into organic traffic.
As an SEO working in this kind of environment—which is basically a zero-click SERP on steroids—you might have already started to feel the impact of AI Overviews even before switching from retail to travel. So, what kind of ideas, tactics, or even strategies have you started thinking about or exploring in your mind?
Maria White: Well, this is a story that we’re dealing with in SEO—not just in travel, but across the board. And it leads me to something I hear a lot, not only in my current role, but one I’ve been hearing for the past year, and that is visibility.
Visibility—you can be the leader. My previous brand, Kurt Geiger, was the leader in visibility in its niche. And I can say that my current role is showing the same. We’re seeing great visibility. But the story we’re also seeing is that visibility doesn’t necessarily reflect in the rest of the metrics. It doesn’t always translate into impact.
At my previous job, we saw high impressions year on year. Rankings were stable. We were number one for every single branded term, and for some non-branded terms as well. There was great positioning. However, clicks were down year on year, and CTR was also down.
Other times, we had the opposite: impressions were flat year on year, but clicks were increasing. So, that led me to build a dashboard last year because we needed to understand why organic traffic, specifically clicks, was on a constant decline year on year.
And that’s where I had to really learn. I forcefully had to learn all the factors that were affecting organic traffic. I couldn’t just say, “It depends.” As an SEO, I couldn’t fall back on that. If I had said “It depends” in my previous job, that wouldn’t have worked. That’s not enough. I needed to explain why.
I couldn’t just blame the algorithm. I couldn’t blame anything else. I had to use the data to understand what was going on and work on that—find a solution. So, last year, I created a dashboard that included paid data. This was a dashboard where I needed to have data from both paid and organic, to first of all see if we were being cannibalized by paid.
That was the first time I started working with paid data on a daily basis. We had a set of keywords, and we built this dashboard where we tracked paid and organic side by side—impressions, clicks, cost, and other metrics.
The first story that emerged was: yes, perhaps we were overusing paid. When we were overbidding on certain terms that didn’t necessarily need that much investment, it was affecting organic. So, we started running tests—that was the first step.
Then, throughout the year, we saw that metrics across both paid and organic were a bit behind. And even if we were switching off the investment in certain keywords, we weren’t necessarily seeing that being picked up by organic. This was especially true during specific times of the year.
So at that point, it wasn’t just about working with paid—we needed to add an extra layer, and that meant looking at search volumes. All of this came out from brainstorming sessions and some tough days we had as an SEO team, and working closely with other teams to figure out what else could be affecting the organic traffic.
This led us to look into search volumes—both in Google and across various social networks—to understand the full customer journey. Where are users starting? What types of queries are starting and where? What happens next in Google?
From there, we discovered that, yes, a good chunk of our queries—specifically informational and educational ones, which belong to the consideration stage of the purchase journey—were actually starting on social networks. Now we had the data to back this up.
So the next step was to figure out what we could do with this insight. For example, maybe we needed FAQs on some of our landing pages. But because of brand constraints, we couldn't always include FAQs directly. So we started exploring other techniques—what if we created those FAQs as videos or images? We could’ve turned them into pieces of content with influencers.
And from there, it's really about what I’ve learned over the past year until now: not just being reactive, but making the time to sit down and explore other avenues. Look at your data, run tests, and work with other teams.
One thing I still do regularly is check the weekly reports—whether from CRM or other marketing channels—to understand what they’re doing, identify spikes in activity, and see how that’s impacting search and, ultimately, organic performance. Because sometimes we see spikes or drops, and we need to understand why.
So it's about constantly looking, constantly exploring. Don’t just stop at, “Oh, it was the algorithm,” or “We don’t know,” or “It depends.” Keep digging into the data, into other channels, into all the possible angles.
The Multi-Channel Search Journey: Social, Search, and Beyond
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, I totally agree. I mean, also because we know that search behavior, or the messy middle, or whatever you want to call it, is really not something that simply starts and ends inside Google.
From my experience, I usually notice that a trigger can be anything. It could be something happening right outside your apartment door. You bump into your neighbor, for example, and they’re wearing a pair of sneakers you love—and that’s when your search journey starts.
And from there, you fall into the classic loop of exploration and consideration. That loop can start in Google, move outside of Google, return to it, jump out again, and even use offline channels like TV.
So really, what we see—even if maybe we, as SEOs, tend to think that everything is moving around SEO or organic. We got so used to thinking that way, right? Like Google was the sun, and we were the ones explaining how the sun moves. But in reality… it never really worked like that.
We’re just returning to what the reality actually is—and maybe what it’s always been: SEO is just a part of the game. And the game is marketing.
And I think you're probably seeing the same thing in travel. Travel is obviously different from retail, but at the same time, it's still driven by emotion, by the need for experience and aspiration. It’s the same kind of dynamic that moves someone to choose, let’s say, Benidorm versus some exotic spot in the Caribbean or Polynesia.
So I feel like this experience you had in retail—working hand-in-hand with other channels—is probably just as relevant, maybe even essential, for travel.
Which brings me to a question: What would you suggest to SEOs who maybe aren’t used to collaborating with others? How can they start collaborating more productively with other teams?
Maria White: What we’re seeing now is that you have to adapt because search results pages are becoming hyper-personalized, and intent matters more than ever. So this is where understanding your customers really matters. You need to know who they are, what age group they belong to, and within each group, what type of content they consume—then make sure you're present there.
SEO now is search optimization in the broadest sense. It’s not just about Google anymore, because the ecosystem isn’t just Google. We can't rely on it 24/7 for everything.
For example, I love video. Google might try, but it doesn’t always serve me video content the way I want it. I love using TikTok. I’ve bought clothing because I saw it on TikTok. I saw an idea, then I watched a few more videos, and only after that did I start thinking about pricing—and that’s when I went to Google. If I didn’t find exactly what I wanted there, I’d go back to TikTok or somewhere else to look for alternatives.
So it’s really about understanding the search journey for each of your customer segments, and making sure you're showing up where they consume content. And that means working with other teams.
If it's TikTok, you'll need to work with the social media team. And if you’re a small business—like a local bakery or a florist—maybe you don’t have a big TikTok presence. But you can start playing around with paid ads, or focus on building out your Google Business Profile. Add your products, publish content, and find other alternatives that work for you as a small business.
Because if you’re only focused on SEO, the old way—writing a blog post, building a basic landing page, grabbing a couple of links that may or may not be relevant—then you're going to end up like many others. That story where year after year, impressions are high, rankings are stable… but clicks and CTR are way behind and continue to decline. It’s about diversifying strategies.
Brand and SEO: Owning Branded Search in Fashion
Gianluca Fiorelli: I completely agree with you, Maria, on everything you just said. But I’d like to shift to another topic that’s become quite popular over the past six months in the SEO community—and that’s brand. Not in terms of brand style or brand voice, but specifically branded searches.
Since you worked at Kurt Geiger for three years—and like many high-level fashion brands, it really leads from a strong brand position—I’m curious to hear two things.
First of all, what did you come to understand about the importance of brand from an SEO perspective? Maybe it’s something you already understood before, but your time at Kurt Geiger helped you understand it even better.
Second, as an SEO, how did you collaborate with all the other channels and partners—in-house at Kurt Geiger, for instance—to actively shape and own the brand search ecosystem for your brand?
Maria White: Yes. So, for the brand I used to work with, our products were sold in multiple places—through concessions and third-party retailers. It was our main KPI to dominate the search results with our own websites. And it wasn’t just one site—we had several.
This meant we had to collaborate closely, not just within digital marketing, but across all departments: PR, editorial, and beyond. They were running campaigns, and SEO needed to support them by ensuring we were reinforcing those efforts with relevancy, particularly through the links we were getting and by making sure our landing pages were fully optimized.
Especially in terms of the metrics that were top-of-mind back then, like Core Web Vitals, in 2020 and 2021. Our websites were image-led, so we had to carefully manage things like site speed to prevent any knock-on effects on performance.
From an SEO perspective, it all came down to relevancy and congruency—being aware of what the other channels were doing and aligning our efforts with theirs. Sometimes, other channels can be a bit close, wanting to keep control over their own campaigns. So one of the biggest challenges for SEOs is to build relationships and establish consistent, open communication across departments. That meant understanding what they are doing, which was the main message of every monthly or yearly campaign.
From there, our job in SEO was to make sure all content—whether it was linkable assets, landing pages, or internal optimizations—aligned with that message. It was all about congruency, relevancy, and integration with other departments, so we can build together a strong brand presence.
Because if we didn’t, what could happen—and what we often saw with other brands (which I won’t name here)—was that their products would show up first on Selfridges or another stockist’s site, while their own site ranked second or third. That wasn’t acceptable for us. We needed to lead the search results.
At the time—this was just about a year ago—the UK search landscape for fashion was different from what we have now. We still had a combination of paid results and traditional blue link results. It’s changed now, of course.
Cross-Functional SEO: Collaborating with CRM, Paid, and Social Teams
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, in fact, I imagine that especially with transactional queries, one of the biggest impacts has been the increased presence of merchant listings in the search results. And I mean, I think this is also SEO—organic merchant listings are still SEO.
But how much were you able to—because I know from personal experience that sometimes a merchant sits in this strange in-between space, half-organic, half-paid—and it’s not always easy to make it clear who’s responsible, or that the two departments should actually be collaborating.
For example, something as simple as using paid ads with images that include embedded text to boost CTR in shopping ads can become an issue when those same images are used in organic merchant listings—where text overlays actually go against the guidelines.
So I’m curious, if you encountered situations like this—or others like it—were you able to create a shared language or a common process to work more collaboratively with the paid marketing team?
Maria White: Well, this is where you realize that the skills of an SEO go beyond just the basics we all know: links, content, technical, and that’s it. It’s also about learning how to build presentations, speak to different teams, and things like that. And I’m so grateful to have been in that kind of environment because it really pushed me.
We’d often say: “Okay, this is the story we think is happening. These are the scenarios we believe could be affecting performance.” Sometimes it was paid. Other times, it was something we needed to test.
I remember last year there was that thing Google rolled out—what was it?—where they tried turning fashion results into a kind of mini landing page. I can’t remember the name exactly…
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, I don’t remember the name either, but it was something presented during one of those search-only events that Google runs. It was quite short-lived, though.
Maria White: So it was really about building on the understanding we already had—understanding what was affecting organic. That meant we needed to go to the paid team and say, “Hey, we think this might be part of the story.” And at first, their response might’ve been, “Okay, but you’re SEO—how is this relevant to us?”
That’s where, as an SEO, you have to step up. You build out case studies. You translate what you want to do into potential loss or gain—what’s the impact in terms of revenue, in terms of traffic? That’s how you speak their language. And once we presented it that way, we all agreed: yes, we need to work together.
So we created a workflow where paid and SEO collaborated. We even started grouping the traffic from paid and organic together under one category—traffic from Google. That way, in our weekly meetings, instead of breaking everything down into silos—“this is SEO,” “this is paid”—we had one unified picture.
We’d say, “Alright, we’ve got five to ten minutes to present on a weekly meeting, everything from Google—what we’re getting and how it’s performing.” And then the messaging would align: email campaigns are saying this, paid follows with that, SEO supports it with content. That’s how we built a bigger picture, together.
And it didn’t stop there—it also included working closely with developers. You can have the perfect relationship with marketing, but when it comes to making changes like adding structured data, revisiting site architecture, or reworking the information architecture, you’re stepping into the development zone.
And that’s another relationship to manage. We had to get them on board to get these changes done that we want to implement.
So I learned that as an SEO, your job isn’t just doing SEO. It’s working across teams—paid, social, marketing channels, but also development. Because if you have a great relationship with them but you can’t communicate with development, or you come with an attitude of, “I want this done yesterday,” they’ll just say, “Yeah… no.” And that becomes a blocker.
Every blocker you face in getting your work done and improving organic performance—that’s part of the job. Overcoming those obstacles is the job. That’s the vision. As an SEO, your role is to positively impact organic traffic in every way possible, doing whatever it takes to make that happen.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes.
Maria White: This applies not just to big brands, but to small businesses too—like the florist or bakery we mentioned earlier. Even if you don’t have full teams managing social, paid, display, and everything else, you can still try several techniques. For example, maybe you have a paid campaign running for a specific project, so you may try to see what happens if you create just one little message with the person who runs the TikTok account—maybe it's the owner themselves. You start there, and then try to build a small workflow where, as the SEO, you work with different things to positively impact organic traffic.
Because yes—organic is one of those channels that’s extremely vulnerable. It’s the most affected by both internal issues on your site or in your company, and by external factors. So, it’s a very sensitive channel.
That means you can’t just sit passively and stick to the same old routine. You can’t keep creating the occasional blog post or tweaking a landing page here and there with a couple of links—without knowing if those links are even relevant. You can’t just do it because that’s what you learned ten years ago.
If you take that approach, sure—you might gain visibility, maybe even stable rankings. But in that case, you'll just become another statistic: one of many brands or small businesses with high visibility, even leading in your space, but not seeing that translate into actual revenue.
And if you work in a bigger company, you’ll definitely start hearing questions like: “What does visibility actually mean? Why are we leading in visibility but still not seeing the clicks?” Why are CTR and conversions lagging behind?
And if you're the owner of a small business, you’re probably not even phrasing it like that. You're just saying: “It’s not working. I’m not getting sales. I’m not getting leads.”
So, as an SEO, you can't rely on one metric. You can’t just focus on rankings and impressions. If clicks are down, if CTR is low, you need to ask why—and then act on it.
Image SEO and Visual Search: A Hidden Opportunity in Fashion and Retail
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, absolutely. And going back to the collaboration with developers—I'm sure that was really important for you, especially in the context you mentioned earlier. Let's say Core Web Vitals were kind of the "excuse," but when it comes to a fashion website, you're heavily reliant on imagery and even video, right?
So I have an honest question here. Beyond the classic benefits—like improving Core Web Vitals, optimizing images, and boosting conversion rates—did you work on or notice any additional impact from that? Specifically in terms of image optimization or even visual search?
I was wondering how much of a role that plays. It's often a neglected part of SEO, but with all the effort put into visuals—especially for fashion—it seems like it could have a bigger impact. And just recently, we saw at Google I/O how much they’re pushing Google Lens.
Maria White: Yes.
Gianluca Fiorelli: And we know that Lens is pure visual search. Plus, there’s Project Astra now—which you could even describe as Google Lens on steroids.
So, I’m curious: what’s been your experience working with image SEO and visual search, especially on a website for a brand that’s heavily reliant on visual marketing?
Maria White: Well, I’ve actually been working on image optimization since before Kurt Geiger. I used to work for an agency that handled pretty much every single florist in the UK. It was amazing—one of the largest agencies for small businesses, primarily florists. It was owned by a lovely guy who came from a floristry background. He didn’t want to be a florist himself, but he still wanted to stay in the business, so he became a developer and built this agency, creating websites for florists.
Obviously, for florists, images are key. That’s what sells. It’s one of the main conversion factors—when a customer lands on a page, the first thing they look at is the image. Of course, price and delivery matter too, but the image is the first thing that captures attention.
One thing I learned is that certain things need to be in place for image optimization—but it’s not always possible to implement them. Not because of the SEO team or specialist, but due to development constraints. Even when you work with local florists who have their own websites, the sites might be hosted externally or managed by an agency. In those cases, the developers may not have the tools or capabilities to make the changes needed to properly optimize images.
So, there are other elements too. I’ve been working on this since around 2018—basically, making images more accessible for different parts of your audience. That includes making them accessible for people with visual impairments or similar needs.
And for that, you start by working with the image source code, describing the images in a way that’s helpful. Not just stuffing it with commercial keywords like “buy flowers in London,” but actually describing the image nicely for someone who might not be able to see it clearly—someone who needs that extra context. That alone can be an opportunity, even for content, if done carefully.
The key is: first, think of the person you're helping to understand the image. Then, you can move into things like creating image sitemaps. Back in my previous role, we looked at brands like Chanel as the benchmark. At the time, Chanel had a beautiful image sitemap—and I believe they still do. The sitemap is really interesting—it keeps changing. I still check their sitemap and robots.txt just for fun because it’s so well done.
The sitemap was really well organized. The image URLs were elegant but also informative—subtly describing what each image was about while maintaining that consistent, refined tone you'd expect from Chanel.
There are several ways to optimize images from a content perspective. Of course, there’s also performance—like speed and rendering—which involves development work. But back in 2018 and 2019, I was already working on things like image source code, image sitemaps, and being intentional with URLs.
Then, around 2022, I started incorporating schema markup and structured data for images as well. But a word of caution here: don’t overuse these techniques. Each element should complement the others. It’s not an excuse to spam your pages with keyword-heavy filenames like “florist-in-london” repeated everywhere. Instead, every component should work together harmoniously—the image URL, for instance, should serve as a kind of library reference, indicating where the image lives and how it fits into the site structure.
When it comes to structured data, a good example was the homepage. In some campaigns—again, talking about my previous job—the homepage would feature just one image, especially during seasonal or high-profile launches. Not for the entire year, that’s something very interesting in fashion. I remember a very grumpy SEO I love, Jono Alderson, used to say that fashion brands were pedantic and petulant for relying too heavily on just a hero image. But the truth is, sometimes that’s exactly the intent. The homepage is meant to feel like a magazine cover, to set a tone. Brands like Gucci, Chanel really leaned into that, and we did too, a bit, because we didn’t like it.
Still, if your homepage is going to feature just a single image, you can’t afford to have no content. You still need to support that visual with structured data, proper alt text, and everything else. That’s where we heavily relied on structured data as well.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s interesting. And I think one of the most viewed dashboards in Search Console lately is probably the “Image” filter.
LLMs and AI: The New Search Experience?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Let’s wrap up with one final question, and this time it’s not about Google, but rather these newer environments like Perplexity, ChatGPT, and even Bing, with the resurgence of interest due to Copilot.
Are you starting to see any patterns or overlaps between users coming from Google versus those coming from LLMs? For instance, maybe through CRM data or attribution tools, you’re able to track where users land and gather some demographic insights. Have you noticed any demographic differences between the users landing from an LLM versus Google?
There’s this common belief—maybe not quite a myth, but often shared on social media and blogs—that LLMs don’t drive a lot of traffic, but when they do, the quality of that traffic is significantly higher. Have you seen any data that would confirm this rumor in your experience? I wouldn’t call it an urban legend, because it’s clearly not—but it is something people are sharing a lot on social media and in blog posts. Have you seen this reflected in your own data as well?
Maria White: Sorry, what was the rumor?
Gianluca Fiorelli: The rumor is that platforms like ChatGPT and other LLMs aren’t driving a huge amount of traffic yet. And that’s something we, as SEOs, should keep in mind—especially if Google starts heavily pushing AI Mode.
But what people are starting to notice is that while ChatGPT might not bring in a lot of traffic, the quality of that traffic is exceptional. The idea is that when a user lands on your site after having a long, meaningful interaction with ChatGPT, they’re much more qualified. They’ve already gone through a sort of pre-selection process, so they’re more likely to convert—compared to someone coming in from a more generic search on Google.
Maria White: One of the things we’ve done with LLMs, ChatGPT, and all the changes that have been happening over the past year is to be careful about where we focus our marketing efforts. Especially when you’re getting information from everywhere—not just within your own company, but also from industry posts, events, and conferences. Everyone at every level—from C-level to operational—is going to these events, and all you see is AI, ChatGPT, and these bold statements about how LLMs are going to replace Google and all of that. Naturally, that creates a bit of panic.
So, one of the first things we needed to do—and I’m very proud to say I brought this into my current company, as I’m a bit of a data nerd—was to build a dashboard. First, we needed to clarify how much traffic we’re actually getting from LLMs versus traditional organic search. Then, once we had that visibility—at least as much as we could have—we started analyzing the behavior of those users coming from LLMs. So we began with that clarification, and from there, we shifted our efforts and campaigns.
So yes, like many other companies and as others have shared in blog posts, we’ve found similar figures. The vast majority of our traffic—around 99.5% to 99.7%—still comes from traditional search engines. The rest, which varies between 0.3% and 0.5% (and never goes higher than 0.7%), comes from LLMs. Of that 99% from traditional search, around 85–87% is coming from Google.
For now, the idea that LLMs are going to replace Google? I don’t see that happening in the immediate future—certainly not in the next five years. I also read some of the recent posts by Aleyda Solis and others who spoke about Google’s market share by 2030. They say that even by then, Google is still expected to be the dominant traffic driver, with about 50% market share, while LLMs won’t make up such a large share—you may say 45%, but that’s not the case. The rest will be distributed across various other sources.
What changes have I seen? I think the people coming from LLMs—essentially what Google is doing now with AI mode—are looking for a certain level of simplicity, hyper-personalization, and a clean experience when booking something or buying a product. They want to avoid feeling overwhelmed.
For example, if I want a specific handbag—let’s say a Coach one—and I see it on TikTok and fall in love with it, but then I can’t find it. I go to Google, but when I search, it’s overwhelming.
There are tons of ads, tons of links. And even though I really want that product—I’ve been influenced, I’m ready to buy—I’m stuck on Google trying out different variations of the query, clicking through pages, just trying to find it.
So what I’ve noticed is that people turn to ChatGPT because they just want simplicity. They want someone—or something—to cut through all the noise and give them exactly what they’re looking for. Out of all the results, ads, and content, just show me the one I need. Does that product or service exist? Is it available in the UK, near me? Without all the clutter.
Because sometimes on Google, it’s like: “Maybe if I try this other query... or change the wording...” and then people just abandon it altogether because the experience is too overwhelming.
That said, what I’ve also seen is that ChatGPT doesn’t always return the most accurate or useful results, especially when people are looking for a product or an experience. You have to be really specific in your prompt, and even then, the output might not be exactly what you're after.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, it tends to be quite generic.
Maria White: It’s like being on Google but using long, detailed prompts. If I want a specific bag or a particular kind of experience, the links that come back aren’t always really what I was looking for.
So, yes, I think it’s more about hyper-efficiency. People are going to LLMs because they’re looking for a clean, straight-to-the-point experience—without having to waste time clicking through links or manually filtering out irrelevant or low-quality results.
Like, for example, if you’re looking for a book or information about a certain condition—I'm talking now about medical stuff—you go to Google, and sometimes what you get back is just a bunch of weird results. Then you click into one, and it’s full of affiliate links or cluttered content that’s barely readable. I think that’s why people are turning more to these experiences. They want clarity and relevancy.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, I think you're right—and this might even be another key advantage when it comes to informational queries on Google. People often go to ChatGPT because they have a question, but they’re not quite sure how to phrase it. It's like what happens with visual search: sometimes you use it because you don’t know how to describe what you need in words.
I always use the classic plumber example—you go to a hardware store to buy something, and you bring the broken part with you because you have no idea what it’s called. Now, with something like Google Lens, you can just point your camera at it and Google tells you what it is. That helps you start the search.
But it’s similar to informational queries. Even when we’re still in the awareness or exploration phase, we often don’t really know how to define what we’re looking for. That’s where I think ChatGPT plays a big role. People use it to figure out what they actually want. Once they’ve defined it more clearly, then yes, some of them might click on the sources presented in ChatGPT.
But I’ve also seen data suggesting there’s a big overlap: people search in ChatGPT, and then they search again in Google. There’s this massive link between the two. So what I see happening is, instead of doing a bunch of frustrating searches on Google, people resolve those issues with a relatively short conversation in ChatGPT. Then, once they’re clearer, they go to Google and continue from there.
Maria White: Yes. This is something we’re seeing not just with ChatGPT, but also across social networks. If users don’t get the results they were expecting, it’s like, “Okay, I’ll go try again on TikTok to refine my search or get more ideas”—and then they come back to Google. So yes, alternative sources to Google are being used, often to gain clarity or better define what someone is looking for, before returning to Google. That might change with AI mode, of course.
What I was talking about earlier—people turning to ChatGPT—is mainly from an e-commerce perspective. As a personal user, though, I actually live on ChatGPT. I use it a lot, especially for certain kinds of tasks. Like, anything from sorting information to cooking—recipes, for example. I still use physical books for recipes. I have one that's nearly 20 years old that has a great recipe for making macarons—literally, the whole book is about that.
The problem is, it gives you measurements for 50 macarons, and I’m like, “I don’t need that many!” So I’ll copy the recipe and ask ChatGPT: “How can I adapt this to make 10 macarons?” And it gives me the revised measurements. I follow the process, and I end up with 10 or 12, just as I wanted.
So that’s how I personally use ChatGPT—for how-to questions, for clarity, for adapting or creating things. It’s incredibly useful in that way.
Quick Fireside Questionnaire
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes. Okay, Maria—I'd love to keep this conversation going; there’s always so much more I’d love to talk about with all our guests. But before we wrap up, I want to ask you a quick question—just something more personal—so that our viewers and listeners can get to know you, not just as the SEO professional you are, but as Maria, the person.
So, for those watching or listening, Maria is originally from Mexico. I’d like to ask some questions about heritage. The first one is a bit nostalgic. What’s the one thing you miss the most about your country?
Maria White: Oh my gosh—the weather! I know it might sound ridiculous, but it’s the weather, and not just the weather itself, but the predictability of it. In Mexico, it’s like a chronological timeline. It’s so stable—you always know what to expect. And as someone who loves routines, that was so comforting. Like, in January, you know exactly what the weather’s going to be like.
I grew up with that timeline in my head, and then I moved to the UK—and all of that changed! But that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I’ve come to love the unpredictability of the weather here. Like, right now, I absolutely love it—cloudy skies, not too hot, not too cold, maybe a little rain in the afternoon. Summer rain. That’s my ideal weather. Or a hot day with a beautiful sunset. That’s why I live near Brighton. I love going to the beach and watching the sunset in summer.
But what I miss the most—and it might sound silly—is the shade of blue in the Mexican sky. It’s a very particular blue.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes! I remember it—I remember that exact blue when I visited Mexico. And maybe it sounds strange, but it’s the same blue as Frida Kahlo’s Blue House in Coyoacán.
Maria White: Yes, that intense, kind of vibrant blue.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes.
Maria White: But I also love things from here. I’m not used to hot weather anymore, so I actually love cloudy days. I know it sounds crazy, but in winter, I love when it gets dark earlier. I just love it. Like, for example—it’s especially true when I’m traveling on the train. I leave in the morning and it’s still dark, and then I come out of the office and it’s dark again. I just love that!
And yeah, I mean, I love both places. But obviously, home is home. Mexico will always be home. Now, this is home too. I recently went to New York, and I remember saying to someone, “Oh, I just want to go home.” And they looked at me and asked, “Where’s home?” And I said, “Oh, back in the UK.” That was a bit odd even for me! But I really like both places.
And what I miss the most from Mexico—aside from family—is the food. And sometimes the weather.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Okay, and just for fun—not to offend at all—but what’s the most Mexican stereotype that you recognize in yourself?
Maria White: Oh, God. It’s the language. When I speak Spanish—especially when I’m with people I feel comfortable with, like you—it just comes out. At some point, it’s like, "Oh my God," the way I speak...
Gianluca Fiorelli: Ah, yes, the classic Spanish accent, which is kind of sing-songy in a way.
Maria White: Exactly! So the most stereotypical thing I have is the language. And in Mexico, Spanish is different too compared to Spain. But Mexican people are very creative with the language. We invent words, we play with expressions—it’s just part of who we are.
When I’m in a comfortable environment, I love making people laugh. That’s something you might not see if you just follow me on Twitter or social media. The person you see online can seem very different from who I am at home. Just ask Jerry—I love singing, I’m always joking around.
That’s really me. And people who’ve been close to me, like Jerry in the past or friends from agencies like Kantar—they’d definitely agree. If they’re watching this now, they’re probably nodding and thinking, “Yeah, you’re a bit nuts”—but in a good way!
Gianluca Fiorelli: And now that you're working for a big travel company, I have to ask the obvious question—what’s one place still on your bucket list that you haven’t visited yet?
Maria White: Oh my God. First of all—I love traveling. I was about to swear, but I won’t! I absolutely love it. Back in my early twenties, when I was a student and didn’t have much money, I traveled all around Mexico. It’s such a diverse country—from the north to the south, from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific coast.
I’ve also been around Europe a couple of times, and honestly, I’m the kind of tourist who gets easily impressed wherever I go. Like, every time I land in Switzerland or Zurich, I think, “This is the quietest airport I’ve ever seen,” especially compared to Mexico City, which is… quite the opposite!
I've been to Mexico City, obviously Mexico, the whole of Mexico. In Europe, Zurich is one of my favorite places. In the UK, I love places like Wales—some of the beaches there are just incredible. Brighton, Edinburgh… there’s so much beauty here too, even for a good staycation.
As for my bucket list—Thailand! And actually, fingers crossed, I’m going in October. There’s a place called Phuket. I haven’t really explored that part of the world yet. I’ve been to the U.S., all over Mexico, and down to South America—Argentina, for example. But I haven’t made it to Southeast Asia or the Middle East yet. The furthest east I’ve been is Turkey and Beirut in Lebanon.
Gianluca Fiorelli: So the eastern part of the world is next?
Maria White: Exactly. That’s the side I’d love to explore more of.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Well, I really hope you get to fulfill that dream soon. Thank you, Maria—it was a real pleasure having you on. I loved our conversation, especially diving into topics we don’t often get to explore, like image SEO and your experience working across different departments, brands, and search.
Maria White: Thank you so much, Gianluca. Thank you, everyone!
Gianluca Fiorelli: Bye-bye.
Podcast Host
Gianluca Fiorelli
With almost 20 years of experience in web marketing, Gianluca Fiorelli is a Strategic and International SEO Consultant who helps businesses improve their visibility and performance on organic search. Gianluca collaborated with clients from various industries and regions, such as Glassdoor, Idealista, Rastreator.com, Outsystems, Chess.com, SIXT Ride, Vegetables by Bayer, Visit California, Gamepix, James Edition and many others.
A very active member of the SEO community, Gianluca daily shares his insights and best practices on SEO, content, Search marketing strategy and the evolution of Search on social media channels such as X, Bluesky and LinkedIn and through the blog on his website: IloveSEO.net.
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