Journey Optimization, Not Just Keywords: The Future of Google Search | Cindy Krum
Welcome back to The Search Session! I’m your host, Gianluca Fiorelli, and in today’s episode, I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with someone I’ve admired for years: Cindy Krum.
If you’ve been around SEO long enough, you know Cindy’s been ahead of the game more times than I can count—whether it was mobile-first indexing, entity-based optimization, or coining the term “SEO Fraggle”.
This conversation goes deep. We talked about the rollout of AI Overviews in Europe, the future of search personalization, and what it means to optimize for search journeys instead of just keywords.
Cindy also shared a fascinating theory about how Google might be merging AI Mode, Discover, and global search into a unified experience, so if you’re curious about where search is heading and what SEOs need to be focusing on next, don’t miss this one.
Let’s dive in.
Video Chapters
How MUM, Journeys, and Ad Tols Like PMax Support Google’s Monetization Strategy
The Change From Keyword Optimisation to Journey Optimisation
The Language-Agnostic Nature of AI Overviews (And Its Economic Reason)
Is Google Restricting SEO Data Access to Push Users Toward Paid Channels?
The Role of LLMs like ChatGPT in Search and Google’s Ecosystem
The Rise of AI Influencers and the Uncanny Valley Phenomenon
Transcript
Gianluca Fiorelli: Hi, and welcome back to The Search Session. Today, we’re going to have a wonderful conversation with one of the sharpest minds in the search industry.
Meet Our Guest: Cindy Krum
She was talking about mobile long before anyone else was paying attention. And she was also among the first—if not the first—to point out that mobile indexing wasn’t just about mobile.
She’s the person who coined the term “Fraggle” in SEO—originally tied to mobile-first indexing, but now used to describe those featured elements in the SERPs that increasingly pull users away from classic organic results.
I’m talking, of course—you’ve probably already guessed—about Cindy Krum.
Welcome, Cindy. It’s a real pleasure to have you here on The Search Session.
Cindy Krum: Good to see you. Thank you.
Gianluca Fiorelli: We’re living in strange times in the search world, aren’t we?
Cindy Krum: Yes, very much so.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, I’m sure you know this already—but until recently, here in the European Union, we were kind of shielded from AI Overviews.
Because of some legislative issues within the EU, we hadn’t seen them yet. But now, for the past three weeks, they’ve started rolling out here too—in Spain, Italy, France, and other countries.
We’re living with AI Overviews now, just like everyone else.
Cindy Krum: Welcome to it.
Is AI Mode the New Default?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, so let’s dive right in—straight to the beef.
I was recently having a conversation with a good friend of mine about AI Overviews. Google took quite a long time—almost a year—to test it through SGE. And for a couple of months now, they've also started testing “AI Mode.”
So we were speculating—wondering if maybe Google is testing AI Mode as a replacement for the classic search experience we all know.
And my answer was: yes.
Cindy Krum: But there’s more to it. I have a big theory.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Oh, let’s hear it! Let’s talk about your theory—let’s see if it matches mine.
Cindy Krum: Wait—do you want to go first?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Sure—though mine’s probably not as sophisticated as yours. But here’s what I think:
Google is clearly moving in a specific direction, and we’re seeing a lot of signals. First, we had AI Overviews launch on google.com in the U.S.
Then there’s that interesting new link at the bottom of the SERP that lets you view results without personalization. That alone tells us Google is heavily personalizing search results—maybe more than ever before.
And it’s not just Google. You probably saw that tweet I shared recently, along with the post on AI and memory. There’s been a lot of buzz around the concept of memory—which is a key characteristic of these emerging systems.
I was also reading the Financial Times interview with Elizabeth Reid, and in it, she really emphasized how conversational these new search queries are—especially among younger generations using AI Overviews.
We’re talking about queries with around 24 words now, compared to the traditional average of four. That’s a huge shift.
So I think Google is trying to gradually condition people to get used to AI-style answers.
On top of that, there’s Deep Search as a model, and all these specialized models within Gemini. We already have Gemini 2.5—which isn’t being used in AI Mode yet, but probably will be. And it might be the best model they’ve built so far.
So yes—I think we’ll see maybe another eight months or so of testing. Then Google will roll it out widely in the U.S., and eventually to other countries as well.
Oh—and one last thing: Google is phasing out ccTLDs, so everything’s moving under google.com. That makes it even easier to launch AI Mode globally, since personalization also includes localization.
So, that’s my theory.
Cindy Krum: Our theories are pretty similar.
I think the launch of AI Mode and Google’s renewed attempt at internationalization through google.com are connected. Remember, they tried this once before—right after launching mobile-first indexing.
That was interesting, because what we eventually realized was that mobile-first indexing wasn’t really about mobile. It was more about entities.
And entities are language-agnostic, right? So it made sense for Google to try to unify things globally. But it didn’t quite work back then—they had to roll it back.
Now they’re trying again. At the same time, they’re testing AI Mode and moving Google Discover to desktop, making it accessible across all your devices.
Getting Discover to work on desktop used to be really tricky. You had to use some hacky methods—we did it with my toolset, but it wasn’t easy.
So when you see all of these changes happening at once, it’s clearly not a coincidence.
I think the internationalization of Google will be bundled together with AI Mode and Google Discover. Because Discover is designed to learn about you—and AI Mode, along with AI Overviews, becomes much more useful, appreciated, and monetizable when it’s personalized.
So in my view, the end goal isn’t to have three separate experiences, but to merge them into one unified, personalized interface.
That’s my theory.
How MUM, Journeys, and Ad Tols Like PMax Support Google’s Monetization Strategy
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, I agree. And then there’s always the big question:
How is Google going to monetize all of this?
Now, I’m not an expert in paid search by any means—but I do follow its evolution. And I’ve heard from friends in the PPC world that with tools like Performance Max and others, everything is increasingly AI-driven.
Cindy Krum: Yes.
Gianluca Fiorelli: And because these tools are built around personalization—just like the personalized experiences we’re heading toward—it becomes much easier to insert ads in a contextual way.
Cindy Krum: Yes, exactly.
But also, think about combining what we know from the paid side—like PMax and AI-driven ads—with what we know about Google’s language models, especially MUM.
That’s something I’ve been talking about on stage recently. MUM stands for Multitask Unified Model—though a lot of people mistake it for Multimodal Unified Model, which is understandable, because MUM is multimodal in how it processes data.
But the key idea behind MUM is that it's Google's way of taking different types of information around a topic and forming it into a kind of narrative—what they call a journey.
And if you think about the evolution of SEO, we’ve gone from optimizing for keywords, to optimizing for entities, and now we’re moving toward optimizing for journeys—on both the paid and organic sides.
Because when the AI on the paid side knows what kind of journey a user is on, and the AI on the organic side understands that journey too, Google can serve results that are far more tailored to that user—far better than just offering generic, non-personalized results.
I think Google has been trying to get to this point for years, but the technology just wasn’t there.
And there’s also this concept they’ve talked about for a long time: the creepy line. They don’t want to cross it. So they’re trying to ease users into this future with AI Overviews, AI Mode, and Google Discover—all kept somewhat distinct for now.
I don’t think it’s going to happen all at once. But I do believe that convergence is the end goal.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes.
Cindy Krum: That’s been the end goal since the days of Google Now, and even in the earlier versions of Google Discover.
The Change From Keyword Optimisation to Journey Optimisation
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, exactly. And when we look at everything that's happening, I still believe that Google already showed us its vision at the last Google I/O.
Remember that moment when they presented this very long, almost whimsical query—“I need to do yoga somewhere”—and the system generated a super creative answer in real time?
It felt like you were having a conversation with Google, and it was pulling in elements from all sorts of places.
And that’s something else we need to keep in mind: Gemini is everywhere. It’s in Gmail, Google Maps, Docs, and more.
By connecting all of these tools—and with the user ID acting as the glue—Google could build the kind of experience it demoed at I/O last year.
It already knows where you live, your interests, your plans. It can bring all of that together to create a kind of “perfect” page, just for you.
According to Google.
And that’s where it starts to feel a bit overwhelming—especially for SEOs.
Because I really believe, and I’ve been saying this for a while now, that we have to optimize for the search journey—or at least for the potential search journeys.
Cindy Krum: Yeah. So here’s how I’ve been explaining it lately—maybe this will help you too when you're talking to people.
I describe journeys like this:
We start with the entity—a concept that isn’t tied to any specific language. It’s translatable, and Google understands it at a topic level.
Then we layer on keywords. Keywords help describe the entity in different languages, but the journeys associated with an entity tend to be fairly universal across languages.
You can think of journeys as modifiers to an entity.
Google uses Mount Fuji as an example. Someone might want to hike Mount Fuji, paint Mount Fuji, or study the flora and fauna on Mount Fuji.
Each of those is a different journey—with a different end goal when it comes to search behavior.
So, for instance, if you want to hike Mount Fuji, you might search for flights, maps, hotels—
Gianluca Fiorelli: —and hiking boots, I remember they used that too.
Cindy Krum: Yes, exactly—hiking boots!
And once Google knows what journey you’re on, it can funnel you into monetized areas. Travel? Already monetized. Shopping? Already monetized. Even video content—like "how to hike Mount Fuji"—is monetized.
So the goal is to identify the journey you’re on, then guide you into a funnel where they can either make money from you, gather more data, or—most likely—both.
The Language-Agnostic Nature of AI Overviews (And Its Economic Reason)
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, absolutely. In fact, this is actually something I already do with my clients. And I want to share something that came up as a question on my end—something I asked Google, specifically Joe Mueller and the team in Madrid—about whether entities are language-agnostic.
So, going back to that idea, it’s interesting because Google is already suggesting what search journeys might look like. They’re doing it through topic filters, through related searches. That’s the kind of information I’m talking about when I say you really need to pay attention to SERPs—because SERPs are a huge clue about what you should be targeting in terms of topics.
Instead of going to a tool and pulling a million keywords to then try and reverse-engineer what the user journey might be, it’s much more effective to look at these suggestions and build out from there. And it works. It really gives results.
Now, going back to the idea of entities being language-agnostic: as I mentioned, we’re starting to see AI Overviews in Europe—but “Europe” here means languages like Spanish, Italian, French... all these non-English languages.
However, if you remember when Google announced AI Overviews for countries like Spain and Italy, they said the feature would be available in the local language and in English. And what happens is, for example, if you do a search and an AI Overview appears, sometimes Google cites or mentions English-language websites—translated into Spanish or Italian.
I mentioned this to the Googlers, and they said, “Yeah, we understand.” But I don’t think it’s fair. It feels like... does this mean there isn’t enough content in Spanish on that topic? That you need to use as a source a website that’s not even relevant for a Spanish-speaking audience?
It’s an example of everything we were just talking about, but also a real issue. Like the classic Mount Fuji example—Google might show content from a Japanese website translated into your language because, supposedly, a Japanese source has more authority or experience on Mount Fuji.
Cindy Krum: But wait—do you really think that’s true? I’m not so sure. I mean, yeah, a Japanese site would obviously have the best insights and the most accurate information, but it might also be one of the hardest for Google’s language processing to handle.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Totally—especially with Oriental languages. Google is fundamentally built around Western language structures, and even Gary Illyes has often stressed how difficult it is for Google to process Oriental languages properly. So yeah… maybe that’s why they’re testing all of this first with non-English Western languages.
Cindy Krum: Yeah, because—I mean—they have to cut costs somewhere, right? AI Overviews are expensive to generate. And if they’re doing all this live—like translating on the fly, figuring out what language you speak, which language has the best content—that’s a lot of work. Sure, they can build that background knowledge over time, but doing all of that from the beginning is really hard.
So they’re probably leaning more heavily on content that’s natively written in English, just because it takes less effort to parse and process. And that’s… sad. It’s unfortunate for a lot of companies.
Cindy Krum: This is probably part of the reason it took longer to roll out AI Overviews and AI mode in Europe. There are just so many different languages to handle—not to mention all the legal considerations—so they were like, “Let’s just pump the brakes. Let’s wait a bit.”
That delay probably gave them some breathing room. During that time, they weren’t showing all the content that originated in English. Instead, if you're searching in Italian, you're more likely to get content that was originally written in Italian—which is easier for them to handle, too.
But if you’re searching in Japanese and they try to serve content written in Italian—or the other way around—that's a much harder match to make. The confidence threshold to show that content is just harder to reach. That’s all.
Visibility Over Rankings in a Personalized Search World
Gianluca Fiorelli: Oh, totally. And there’s another added difficulty here: how do you measure performance in this new environment? If everything becomes so personalized, the classic rankings are going to lose a lot of their usefulness.
That’s why there’s this growing stream of thought among SEOs—including myself—that we need to shift our focus toward visibility. But even then, how do you measure visibility in an environment that's so heavily personalized?
If the search experience is, say, 90% personalized and only 10% “neutral,” how do we account for that? Sure, there’s always that one search we make in a day that’s completely new to us—something we’ve never searched before. In that moment, maybe the result is still kind of neutral. But right after that first click—after that first “natural” answer—the experience starts becoming personalized almost immediately.
So that’s the real problem. Maybe it's less about just being visible—because for visibility, we can still optimize for Search Journeys, for multimodal content like text, images, and video, and for presence across Google's platforms and ecosystem.
But measuring that visibility? That might become the biggest challenge—the real headache moving forward.
Cindy Krum: If it’s even possible at all, right? I mean, we’re already working with very approximate numbers in a lot of cases. We put a lot of trust in data—rankings, impressions, clicks—but so much of that is either pulled from Google APIs, which they’ve openly said they’re already tweaking, or it’s sampled data from tools like Google Analytics or Search Console.
So, really, we’re already operating with data that might not be as accurate as we think. And I believe this shift is going to push us even further away from reliable measurement. You’re right—we’ll be focusing more on basic visibility, sure—but I also think we’ll start mapping out the different journeys people take.
That means looking at the entities we’re associated with and the potential journeys tied to them. Then the question becomes: Does Google understand this journey? If not, maybe you need to teach Google that the journey exists.
And once you’ve identified the journey, the next step is figuring out: Where is Google sending people who are on this path? Is it YouTube? Then you need to rank on YouTube. Is it Merchant Center? Then optimize for that.
I think the future of SEO is going to involve breaking things down like that—following the journey and meeting users wherever Google chooses to send them. And honestly, sometimes you’ll get better, more actionable data in platforms like YouTube or Merchant Center than you would from Search Console—more specific insights, clearer errors, things you can actually fix.
So yeah, it’s an interesting (and kind of challenging) potential future case.
Is Google Restricting SEO Data Access to Push Users Toward Paid Channels?
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, and I think another important insight came out during the Google Search Central event in Madrid. You know how Googlers always say, “No, we don’t include AI mode in Search Console along with classic web data.” But people like me, like our mutual friend Aleyda Solis, and many others—we keep pushing them. We keep saying, “We need this data.”
Because honestly, the March 2025 core update could practically be called the “AI Overview Update.” The spike in AI Overview appearances was dramatic. I saw it firsthand with a client in the UK—they were already showing up in AI Overviews, but after some solid Search Journey optimization work we did, their visibility just exploded.
And what did the Googlers say? There was someone—I can’t recall the surname—but he was the product engineer responsible for Search Console. And he said, “At this moment, we don’t want to create a filter for AI mode.” But for me, “at this moment” is the key phrase.
Because a time will come when they feel confident enough—and maybe when they slow down the insane number of tests they’re still running on AI Overviews—then we’ll probably see something like a new “AI Overview” or “AI Mode” report. Just like we have for Discover or Google News, they’ll eventually introduce an AI filter—a filtered view of that traffic.
And honestly, if they don’t, I think we’ll see a full-blown revolution. A kind of French-Jacobin-style uprising—not just from SEOs, but from business owners too. Because without data, we can’t do anything. We’re flying blind.
Cindy Krum: But maybe that’s part of the point, right? Maybe they want to push everyone—including SEOs—toward paid channels, where the data is much more accurate and pristine, and where traffic is more controllable just by turning up your bids. And of course, Google makes more money there.
I think we’re starting to see Google act more like a business focused on revenue than a utility designed to make the world better. And people need to be realistic about that.
If Google can make the data we rely on less and less valuable—unless we’re paying for it through ads—they might do that. Just to nudge more people into the paid side of the ecosystem.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah—I totally hear you. And when I’m in my more cynical state of mind, I tend to agree. But I still try to hold on to some positive expectations for the future.
I mean, I also think that if Google becomes too greedy, it might actually work against them. Especially given the reputation SEOs already have—and, let’s be honest, sometimes deserve—because of certain bad practices.
But I always come back to something Mike King once said: SEOs are actually one of Google’s biggest allies. We’re the ones trying to follow the guidelines—not just out of fear of penalties, that would be too simplistic—but because we know that by aligning with the guidelines, we can increase our clients’ visibility.
We’ve been the ones pushing HTTPS adoption. We’ve promoted structured data. Without SEOs, many of the standards and enhancements Google has introduced wouldn’t have been implemented nearly as widely.
Even when it comes to content—this whole push toward E-E-A-T—it’s SEOs who’ve been championing it to business owners. We’ve played a big role in raising the bar for content quality.
So if Google doesn’t at least provide some tools or transparency—and just forces everyone into paid—I don’t know how quality is going to be maintained in the long run.
Cindy Krum: It’s not. But that’s how monopolies work—there’s nowhere else to go.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Time for a bit of a Monty Python moment—“Let’s hope for the Spanish Inquisition”—except in this case, it’s the European Union. Their soft power, especially around pushing new regulations, might end up being the unexpected force that shakes things up.
But let’s see. I don’t want to dive too deep into politics here, but maybe what we’re seeing in Europe can help explain some of the tension we’re also starting to see between big tech and the U.S. government.
Cindy Krum: Yeah… we’ll see.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, we’ll see.
The Role of LLMs like ChatGPT in Search and Google’s Ecosystem
One thing that keeps coming up with Google is that we’re always dealing with new environments, like ChatGPT, Perplexity etc. Sometimes, I think we SEOs can get a little too caught up—blinded, even—by all the complexity, the cloud infrastructure, the amazing tools. But then we open Google Analytics and see where the traffic is really coming from.
And even though some alternative search engines are growing in market share, they’re still trailing far behind in actual usage. They’re not generating significant traffic—at least not yet.
Personally, I tend to see these new environments not as threats taking market share away from Google, but as complementary channels. They’re expanding the way people search for information. They’re not necessarily replacing Google, but rather adding to the overall number and variety of searches people perform.
Cindy Krum: I think it’s still so early that it’s hard to tell. We’re definitely not seeing one platform going up while another goes down—at least not yet. But I do think you’re right in saying it could be additive.
That’s probably because people are treating AI agents more like a conversation partner or a kind of brainstorming buddy, rather than just a traditional seek-and-find tool. So yes, it could absolutely be additive.
At the same time, if you look at what Google’s been focusing on lately, they’ve put a lot of effort into making search more conversational. I think Google wants to be in that space. And that ties back to what I was talking about earlier: when you combine all of Google’s utilities—Search, AI Overviews, Discover, AI Mode—they could eventually integrate those into a much more seamless, conversational experience.
Especially if they start feeding more of your personal history into AI Overviews, the whole experience becomes less fragmented. That could be the foundation for a more personalized and truly conversational search environment.
What’s Left of Classic Search? Exploring the Segmentation of Search Experiences (e.g., the Rise of Short Video Vertical)
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, exactly. In fact, there’s a theory—especially popular in the Italian SEO community—that we’ll know we’ve officially moved from this experimental phase into the actual future the moment Google makes a very specific change.
Right now, in the Google app on both iPhone and Android, we see the standard search bar with three buttons: a microphone, Google Lens, and I think maybe Maps too. But the idea is that the moment Google replaces those buttons with just a microphone and a “Talk to Google” prompt—that’ll be it. That’ll be the signal that we’ve fully entered the AI era.
It’ll probably start with Android users, of course, and then roll out more broadly. That would be Google’s way of formally saying: "This is it. The future is now. Welcome to AI Mode."
What’s also going to be fascinating is which features they decide to keep. Because we know there’s a kind of generational divide here. We—those of us in our 50s and 60s—are a bit of a niche. We’re technologists, sure, but most people our age aren’t.
I see it all the time with friends and peers—they’re not engaging with these AI features the way younger generations are. So, I think it’ll be interesting to see if Google keeps certain legacy options, like the classic Web filter in the search results menu.
It’s likely they’ll continue to offer that, especially for people who prefer the traditional search experience. Gen Z, millennials, tech-savvy users—they’ll embrace the conversational AI experience. But others might still want the familiar structure of a classic search.
Cindy Krum: They’ll keep it—because it’s already monetized.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Ah, totally. And actually, that search menu is one of the most overlooked features in SEO. But it’s so interesting! For example, we’re now seeing a big increase in the presence of Short Videos as a vertical in that menu—it’s really starting to take off.
The Rise of AI Influencers and the Uncanny Valley Phenomenon
Cindy Krum: Yes—and I think younger generations are really drawn to short videos as a way to get answers to their questions. It’s something we’re paying close attention to, because people are now searching TikTok for restaurant recommendations, fashion tips, all sorts of things.
And I think it’s because they’ve figured out that traditional star ratings and reviews can be gamed—or even completely made up. So instead, they turn to TikTok, where it’s harder to fake an authentic person with a following, a clear focus, and a real voice in a specific niche.
Not that AI won’t try—because it already is. There are platforms now where you can create AI influencer bots. But I do think people will still be able to tell the difference, at least for now, between a real influencer who’s actually using TikTok and a synthetic one.
That, to me, feels a bit grim. It’s kind of a dark thought—imagining a future where you don’t even need a human to create an influencer video. You just have an AI that looks like a person, reading scripts generated by yet another AI.
We could end up junking up the internet very quickly if we go down that path.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes—but in that case, I think our own brain is actually our best ally.
Let me explain. It’s the uncanny valley effect. We’re often more comfortable trusting an AI-generated influencer that’s clearly synthetic than one that looks perfectly human but triggers that subtle feeling that something’s “off.” Our brains instinctively pick up on it—even if we can’t quite explain why.
That’s the situation we’re heading into now. And honestly, it’s easy to detect. You can already feel it with some influencers on Instagram and TikTok—there’s just something not quite right.
It’s the same thing that happens when we read a text generated by AI that hasn’t been edited by a human. There are these subtle patterns—certain word choices or phrasing quirks—that feel unnatural. Even people who aren’t technical can often spot it.
So I think, for now, AI still has some way to go before it can truly fool people. We’re not in a Blade Runner world yet—where you need a special empathy test to figure out if you’re talking to a cyborg or a real human.
Cindy Krum: Maybe. I’m not sure. But as deepfakes and AI-generated videos keep getting better and better… how are we really going to know the difference?
It’s interesting to think about. Right now, a lot of influencers use video filters to look flawless—no wrinkles, no freckles, perfectly smooth skin. But I think in the future, the opposite might actually become what makes someone feel more trustworthy.
Showing fewer filters. Looking more real—like an actual person you’d meet in real life. With wrinkles, freckles, maybe some asymmetry in the face, hair that’s not perfectly styled. All those little imperfections.
And that’s where the line between what’s authentic and what’s AI-generated will become a real point of discussion. I think it’s going to be a huge topic of investigation—how we define, detect, and value realness in a world where artificial perfection is easy to create.
New Frontiers of Search: Augmented Reality Search
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes. And what about other kinds of environments?
Take the metaverse, for example—it almost feels like a joke now, after all the hype Meta generated around it. But we can’t deny that augmented reality still has serious potential, especially once it becomes more mainstream.
The key will be the hardware—once companies figure out the right kind of device to offer for AR, rather than focusing solely on VR, that’s when we might see things really take off. Augmented reality feels like it could be the more viable future.
It could even become something like Ready Player One—where you have two different types of experiences. One is more neutral, ad-free, almost idealistic. And the other is like the one controlled by the villain in the book and the movie—completely filled with ads, where every interaction is monetized, and you have to navigate through tiny windows squeezed between layers of marketing.
Let’s see which version we get.
Cindy Krum: They actually tried something like that a while ago. There was a platform called Layar—this was years back—and it used GPS coordinates to overlay different APIs onto your visual reality.
You’d hold up your phone’s camera, and depending on the “layer” you activated, you’d get different kinds of information. For example, if you turned on the restaurant layer—or maybe something like an OpenTable layer—you’d see markers on your screen showing restaurants nearby. One might say “five stars,” another “serves Italian food,” and you could tap to interact with them.
You could even turn on multiple layers at once. Let’s say you wanted to see both restaurants and movie theaters—you’d see them overlaid at the same time. You could zoom out for a bird’s-eye view and see that a particular Italian restaurant and a theater were located right next to each other. It was super interactive and informative.
But it wasn’t just about businesses or monetized features. There were also layers for things like historical walking tours. You could explore a new city, follow a preset path—1, 2, 3, 4—and when you reached each point, you’d see a real-time overlay of that landmark’s history. Maybe you’d see what it looked like in the past, how it used to be painted, or hear some cultural context.
So I think there’s a real future where AR, VR, and all of that come together—especially when paired with new wearables, like Meta’s smart glasses or whatever comes next. It opens up new, fascinating ways to interact with the world—and hopefully, more opportunities for us to optimize and engage with users differently.
Yeah, the future can feel a bit overwhelming… but it’s also still kind of fun.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Sure—it’s definitely going to be fun. And let’s be honest, way more exciting than just optimizing title tags!
For me, it’s actually quite familiar. I spent many years working in the TV and film industry, and this evolution in search and digital experience reminds me a lot of that world.
When you're creating a movie or a TV series, you need to understand the technical side: what cameras to use, how to handle post-production, sound design, visual effects—all of it. But that’s not enough. You also need a great story. Even if it’s a big-budget blockbuster, it still needs to be entertaining and resonate with its audience.
So you have to know who you're targeting and what to offer them.
And I think the web—and our work as SEOs—is becoming something similar. It’s highly technical. We have to understand the mechanics, the platforms, the tools, all the moving parts. But our value lies in using that technical knowledge to amplify creativity—helping marketing teams and clients tell better stories, reach their audience, and stand out.
Cindy Krum: Yes.
Gianluca Fiorelli: And coming back to the kind of thing you were describing earlier—I think Google could easily move in that direction too. You can already do interesting things with Maps. You can shift into different views, explore locations from above, and if they combine that with Lens… well, the possibilities for immersive, layered experiences are huge.
Cindy Krum: Yeah, it already exists on Android.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah? Okay—perfect.
Rapid-Fire Personal Questions
Gianluca Fiorelli: Honestly, I think I could spend another couple of hours talking with you. I always enjoy these conversations. Even though we share a similar vision in many ways, you always manage to expand it and add new layers. It’s truly a pleasure.
But before we close the conversation—as I’ve done with all the other guests—I have one last quick question for you. It’s meant to help us get to know you a little better, not just Cindy the SEO.
The rule is: answer without thinking too much. Just go with your gut. Ready?
Cindy Krum: I'm ready.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Okay, let’s start. What’s your favorite season of the year?
Cindy Krum: Spring.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Oh, nice—so you must be pretty happy right now!
Cindy Krum: Yeah.
Gianluca Fiorelli: And what’s a food you absolutely don’t like?
Cindy Krum: Hmm… I eat most things, but I really don’t like very spicy food. Too spicy is a no for me.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Ah, so when you're traveling in the East—or in countries where everything’s really spicy—you manage okay?
Cindy Krum: Yeah, I don’t mind herbs and spices. What I do mind is heat—like super spicy.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Ah, got it. Like the ultra mega chili stuff.
Cindy Krum: Exactly—like Thai-level spicy.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yeah, yeah. Okay, next one—what’s the latest non-marketing book you’ve read?
Cindy Krum: Oh wow, I read so many books, Gianluca. Lately, I’ve been reading a few about kids who went through really difficult childhoods. I don’t think they’re very well-known. One I just finished is called The Bad Room—I think that’s the title. It’s about a little girl who grew up in a tough foster care situation.
Gianluca Fiorelli: That’s interesting. So do you read all kinds of genres, or do you have a favorite?
Cindy Krum: I love memoirs.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Oh, cool.
Cindy Krum: Yeah—this one was a memoir, written by the girl as an adult, looking back on her childhood.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Very nice. Okay, one last one—what’s a place that’s still on your bucket list? Somewhere you’ve always wanted to visit?
Cindy Krum: I’ve never been to Venice.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Ah, okay! Well, as an Italian, I can tell you—Venice is a great choice.
But here’s a tip: the biggest issue with Venice is the sheer number of tourists. It’s crowded almost all year round. That said, there are a few moments—like October—when the crowds thin out a bit. That’s part of the traditional low season.
You can even use Google Trends to figure out when Venice sees the least foot traffic. Honestly, Venice is beautiful year-round, but if you can go when there are fewer people, it’s even more magical.
So that’s my recommendation, straight from an Italian. And when you do go, I’ll send you a list of what to eat, what to drink—everything. I can be your personal AI Mode—Gianluca Search, customized just for Cindy!
Alright—last question.
What’s a memory from your childhood that you find yourself returning to from time to time? One that really sticks with you?
Cindy Krum: We traveled a lot when I was a kid. One of the most memorable trips was when we went to Hawaii for a total solar eclipse.
We were in Volcanoes National Park, standing on the side of a volcano when the eclipse happened. It suddenly got very dark—all the birds flew back into the trees—and then, just as quickly, the light returned. It was surreal. Really magical.
There was even a lava flow in the distance, visible from where we stood. And we were standing on dried lava ourselves. It was very tropical, very hot—and it smelled strongly of sulfur. Just an unforgettable experience.
Gianluca Fiorelli: Yes, that’s definitely a memory you could never forget.
Thank you so much, Cindy. It was truly a pleasure to share this conversation with you. I really hope we get the chance to meet again soon—in real life.
And to everyone listening or watching this episode of Search Session, remember to help the show grow: subscribe, click the bell, and stay tuned for notifications about new episodes.
Thanks again—and bye-bye!
Cindy Krum: That was fun—thank you!
Podcast Host
Gianluca Fiorelli
With almost 20 years of experience in web marketing, Gianluca Fiorelli is a Strategic and International SEO Consultant who helps businesses improve their visibility and performance on organic search. Gianluca collaborated with clients from various industries and regions, such as Glassdoor, Idealista, Rastreator.com, Outsystems, Chess.com, SIXT Ride, Vegetables by Bayer, Visit California, Gamepix, James Edition and many others.
A very active member of the SEO community, Gianluca daily shares his insights and best practices on SEO, content, Search marketing strategy and the evolution of Search on social media channels such as X, Bluesky and LinkedIn and through the blog on his website: IloveSEO.net.
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